04 EN: Keep cool - Vacuum Brazed Cold Plates By Miba Cooling Austria

00:00:00: This episode was translated from a German interview with AI.

00:00:28: Customers have varying requirements that can change during those eight weeks or during the time between order receipt and delivery because we're in project business, which means a project might be moved up or postponed.

00:00:39: So we have to build on certain degree of flexibility from start –and this requires very good customer relationship!

00:00:45: Welcome to new episode of Meeba Inside The Tech podcast for all customers, colleagues & everyone who is passionate about technologies for cleaner planet.

00:00:54: Here's what you normally don't see the technology inside engines, trains ships wind turbines hydroelectric power plants power grids and much more.

00:01:05: Our experts from MiBAR explain how our components contribute to making products and applications safer more reliable and more energy efficient And they also show why we are world leaders in many of these specialized areas of technological development.

00:01:21: Today were talking about a technology that some us may already be familiar with brazing.

00:01:26: Some of you might have even done soldering or brazing in craft lessons in school.

00:01:31: But the brazing we're talking about today isn't that simple, it's actually vacuum brazing!

00:01:36: So what is used for?

00:01:37: What gets vacuum-brazed and where?

00:01:39: Spoiler alert – It is produced in a furnace but will get to that later.

00:01:43: Three specialists from MIBA Cooling Austria who are my guests today will answer that.

00:01:48: First Andreas Fruman.

00:01:50: he's the production manager.

00:01:51: welcome

00:01:52: Hello.

00:01:53: Then there is Samuel Walner, he's a specialist in vacuum-brazing technology and knows the ovens down to the smallest detail.

00:02:00: Hello?

00:02:01: And Stephanie Pilsall – she heads supply management at MiBAR Cooling Austria….

00:02:06: …and therefore has direct contact with customers & suppliers!

00:02:10: Hello it is nice to have you here as well.

00:02:12: Hello

00:02:12: thankyou.

00:02:13: My name is Orton Schandel... ...and I'm happy to guide through this podcast.

00:02:18: To begin we'd like get know you better so here are few quick questions to each of you in turn.

00:02:25: How long have you been with MIBA?

00:02:26: Andreas, let's start with you!

00:02:28: I've been with Miba Cooling Austria for almost nine years now... ...I started in March, two thousand seventeen as production manager a position i have held ever since.. ..i may be the oldest in this group but not the longest serving.

00:02:41: Well

00:02:41: i've been here with the company for i think fourteen years now and this september.... And yes, since February first twenty-twenty five I've been working as head of supply chain management.

00:02:55: Great!

00:02:56: What about you Samuel?

00:02:57: As Andreas mentioned at the beginning he is not the longest serving member here.

00:03:01: that's me in this case.

00:03:03: i've been with the company for sixteen years now... ...I started in research and development.

00:03:07: as a lab technician.

00:03:08: For a few years I was responsible for development management at the site but Because of interest and the need for a process technician in the VB area, which means vacuum brazing.

00:03:18: I've now focused entirely on that And i have been doing it about one year Now.

00:03:22: You all are with Miba for very long time actually Nine years, fourteen years, sixteen years.

00:03:27: So there must be something about this company.

00:03:30: What do you like most about it?

00:03:31: Steffi maybe we can start With you.

00:03:34: Yes what i like most is definitely That its very diverse especially In my position ideal with suppliers.

00:03:39: I deal with customers, but we are also connected throughout the company as interfaces in sales and production.

00:03:46: It's just fun to work with a team!

00:03:48: And i think that is most important thing – enjoying your work making progress learning about new technologies.

00:03:54: There always something new happening every day.

00:03:56: The Company is based on Ligast Stereo.

00:03:58: Is it an advantage for you too close where you live?

00:04:02: Exactly For me its two minutes to work so definitely a big advantage.

00:04:08: I'm about fifteen minutes away, so proximity is definitely a factor.

00:04:12: But it's also the variety in what we do.

00:04:15: The product portfolio has changed so much over the years that were always developing and restructuring.

00:04:20: With our partnership with Meeba Electronics Slovenia We can now fully focus on vacuum-brazed heat sinks.

00:04:26: Were getting more interesting and larger series Which lets us invest new technologies like automation A new washing system And a new furnace.

00:04:33: That means day is challenging and varied for you all!

00:04:37: Samuel, what about you?

00:04:39: A lot has already been said but for me it's the diversity of work.

00:04:42: I originally came from electrical engineering and moved into process engineering through development.

00:04:55: And honestly, the team makes a big difference.

00:04:57: I've worked at other companies and the fun relaxed atmosphere here is something you don't find everywhere

00:05:02: very nice.

00:05:03: so you build vacuum-brazed heat sinks.

00:05:05: as we already mentioned these are braised or finished in a bracing furnace.

00:05:09: before we get to this bracing furnaces We need take step back actually even forward.

00:05:16: Where can you find such heat sinks?

00:05:18: Wherever large amounts of electricity are transported and high power output is required, heat generated must be dissipated.

00:05:25: To give an example we use our heatsinks in the frequency converters of electric train systems at wind farms for transporting electricity from offshore power plants.

00:05:34: So they're used together with power electronics right

00:05:37: Exactly.

00:05:38: And those need to be cooled!

00:05:39: There are several ways to cool such switchgear substations or other equipment.

00:05:43: You also make other types of heat sinks like air coolers, or heat pipes.

00:05:48: Samuel what is the advantage of vacuum-brazed heatsinks?

00:05:51: I'd say that biggest advantage Is their extremely long lifespan We're talking more than twenty years.

00:05:57: They're very robust when it comes to internal pressures and importantly they can dissipate a lot energy in small areas.

00:06:04: So wherever you have high currents, you get high power losses and those need to be managed.

00:06:09: And when it comes to reliability like with offshore wind turbines where you can't just go out and replace a part in the middle of the sea It's crucial that these components work year after year.

00:06:20: so this is the world champion among heat sinks.

00:06:24: Is that fair assessment?

00:06:25: Yes I'd say its accurate.

00:06:27: Are there specific cases?

00:06:28: were technology really only option?

00:06:31: You mentioned offshore wind farms.

00:06:33: Are there other places where only vacuum-braised heat sinks will do?

00:06:37: In some applications, the installation space is very limited and especially in those cases... ...the vacuum brazed heat sinks are ideal because they offer high cooling performance in tight spaces.

00:06:47: Steffi how does that work with customers?

00:06:50: I assume there are different models of heat sinks.

00:06:53: A train probably needs something different than an offshore wind farm.

00:06:56: How does the collaboration with the customer work?

00:06:59: Do they come to you with a problem Or do you suggest solutions?

00:07:02: Well, both scenarios exist.

00:07:04: It's always a solution we develop together with the customer.

00:07:07: Of course it often happens that the customer already has an existing concept or at least knows where the heat sink will be installed but The underlying structure of the structure within the heatsink is then designed simulated and tested by us.

00:07:19: Basically We only offer custom solutions.

00:07:22: Every customer gets a product tailored to their needs.

00:07:25: Our designers & engineers work closely With the customer from very beginning.

00:07:29: A quick question about quantities.

00:07:31: So if these are such customized solutions...

00:07:34: Orders can range from just one or two units for samples up to tens of thousands per year, For a single type.

00:07:40: You already mentioned that all colleagues From MIBA Cooling Austria Are working together from the start To finish When new product is developed.

00:07:48: What disciplines on team?

00:07:50: What qualifications Do you need work here And how does it benefit you To have people different backgrounds?

00:07:56: I think it starts with technology and goes all the way to business roles.

00:08:09: For example,

00:08:21: I was able to do an apprenticeship alongside my job and studied electrical engineering for energy technology.

00:08:31: This let me dive deep into topics like EGPT's high current transmission, how wind turbines work

00:08:37: etc.,

00:08:38: And that of course helped a lot but it also help the company because its two way street.

00:08:42: On one hand you learn alot at school You can apply in the company But also other direction.

00:08:49: you can simply bring a lot of experience from the company back to school, to gain much better understanding.

00:08:54: What did you study at Technical College?

00:08:56: At Technical College I studied technical computer science and electronics but then switched to mechanical engineering production technology at university.

00:09:05: How do these different backgrounds help?

00:09:07: even today especially nowadays with lots of processes being automated under development happening regarding software training in Computer Engineering has been very helpful.

00:09:17: So even if someone feels like they're in the wrong school, you can always find a way...

00:09:21: The path is always the right one.

00:09:23: You could take different directions but what you have learned stays with and will also be useful.

00:09:29: Very good!

00:09:30: Let's move on to vacuum brazing.

00:09:32: It's very specialised technology that we have there in Liegeist Stereo Right?

00:09:36: Vacuum brazing is a very special technology not common for aluminum parts.

00:09:42: There are other methods as well.

00:09:43: To be quite honest They aren't environmentally friendly and they can't deliver the same quality.

00:09:49: Vacuum brazing itself, as I've already mentioned is a very clean technology because the parts are brazed almost exclusively under the protective atmosphere of a vacuum.

00:09:57: This means no oxygen reaches the components preventing oxidation.

00:10:02: therefore No additives like flux or needed And flux is usually very toxic which something we naturally want to avoid.

00:10:08: So you have two parts that are soldered?

00:10:11: Braised together

00:10:12: Exactly.

00:10:13: We have a milled part where the cooling channels are created and a lid.

00:10:17: The lid is specially treated, it has very thin layer of solder rolled onto it And that's what bonds in process permanently connecting to the base plate.

00:10:26: What temperature does the brazing furnace reach?

00:10:29: Almost six hundred degrees Celsius.

00:10:31: That means the bracing layer melts and joins these two parts

00:10:34: Exactly!

00:10:35: The parts are clamp together into the braze machine To ensure good contact between cover & base and the components are then soldered together at around six hundred degrees.

00:10:45: How can we picture a brazing furnace?

00:10:47: how big is it

00:10:48: actually?!

00:10:48: A brazing furnace like that fills entire rooms.

00:10:51: I'd say, The most recently acquired brazing system Is roughly fifteen to twenty meters long And four metres wide Including all of necessary peripheral equipment!

00:11:00: ...and there's vacuum inside...is that

00:11:02: safe??

00:11:02: Working with such huge

00:11:04: component!!

00:11:05: The vacuum itself isn't dangerous at all.

00:11:07: It just necessary for process.

00:11:09: You can imagine the oven as a very large chamber equipped with heating elements, electric heating that bring the components up to brazing temperature.

00:11:17: And the vacuum is essentially like protective gas and airless space which prevents oxidation of the

00:11:23: components.".

00:11:24: I've heard the brazing chambers need to be cleaned... ...and that's not as safe as i thought!

00:11:28: Perhaps you'd like to answer Andreas or Samuel?

00:11:31: Regular maintenance required.

00:11:33: The brazing chamber is removed every three years or so.

00:11:36: the oven has internal components that are taken out and residues, mainly magnesium ,are cleaned away.

00:11:43: Magnesium burns very hot And it's quite flammable So you have to be careful

00:11:47: I think.

00:11:47: To illustrate this You can compare It with the sparklers we used on Christmas trees Because its essentially magnesium.

00:11:53: It starts to burn when exposed to slight heat or sparks Or even impossible to put out

00:11:59: Not entirely without risk.

00:12:01: Speaking of ovens, you already mentioned the largest brazing furnace.

00:12:05: is fifteen meters long or was it twelve metres?

00:12:08: The whole area including peripherals Is that big.

00:12:11: The brazing system itself has internal dimensions Of about three metres by one metre.

00:12:16: That might not sound huge but It's still the Largest Brazing Oven in Europe.

00:12:20: So the Largest Brazing Furnace In Europe is Located right in the middle of Ligist Stereo.

00:12:26: Thats quite something You probably wouldn't guess if If were just driving By.

00:12:30: And what I find particularly nice is that you give your brazing furnaces names.

00:12:34: What's the name of the largest one?

00:12:36: The largest one is called Donatella, all our brazing furnace have been given women's names.

00:12:40: i'm not sure how that tradition started.

00:12:42: so this oven is called donatella and it starts with a D. You said All Your Ovens Have Names!

00:12:48: We started with Anna Our Smallest System in two thousand ten.

00:12:52: Then Bertha came in twenty sixteen followed by Cecilia In Two Thousand Twenty Three.

00:12:58: We are already looking forward to Amelia.

00:13:00: Is it all ready in production or is just waiting on the wings?

00:13:04: And special thing about Donatella, you didn't order from supplier.

00:13:08: You co-designed and for a specific reason!

00:13:11: You acquired this know how with Cecilia The third oven.

00:13:15: Please tell us story of How This Happened.

00:13:17: Yes the third brazing furnace Cecilia had actually been With Us For many years.

00:13:22: we have our first Brazing System In two thousand ten.

00:13:25: But to determine which brazing system we needed, the furnace supplier at that time conducted preliminary tests and these were carried out precisely on Cecilia.

00:13:32: This is a brazing systems that was located in Malta.

00:13:36: back then In twenty-twenty two The owner asked if he would be interested buying it And We did It's smart move!

00:13:42: And you got equipment yourself?

00:13:44: Yes I Was lucky enough To Be there Since i trained as an electrician.

00:13:48: I was first choice to help dismantle the furnace.

00:13:52: You get see every detail all the components that are installed, how they interact with each other and you simply gain a much deeper understanding of the technology itself.

00:14:01: How long does it take to disassemble and reassemble such a furnace?

00:14:05: There're probably thousands of parts!

00:14:07: We didn't break down into tiny pieces just enough for container shipping about fifty large parts.

00:14:13: Dismantling took about one week-and-a-half And we had ten people working on it.

00:14:17: After system was delivered to us It underwent refurbishment.

00:14:20: The oven dates back two thousand so the mechanical structure was still fine, but the software needed updating.

00:14:26: In very close coordination with The Oven Manufacturer we essentially developed a new concept for what the software should look like and this helped us a lot in the subsequent selection of the software for the brazing system Donatella because we were already so involved in the subject matter.

00:14:40: So basically Cecilia Plus you've upgraded the system?

00:14:44: Exactly!

00:14:44: Cecilia became Cecilia plus And all the lessons we learned to use to refine Donatello I think we've now got some really top-notch technology.

00:14:52: That must have meant a lot of collaboration, not just with customers but also with suppliers especially for Cecilia!

00:14:58: How long did it take to plan and develop Donatella?

00:15:01: A decision like that... ...to purchase a brazing furnace isn't made overnight.

00:15:05: First there has to be customer demand And you have do the economic calculations because these systems aren't exactly cheap.

00:15:13: Then start your market screening.

00:15:14: who actually has potential to supply us in this system?

00:15:19: The Donatella Furnace, as we mentioned before is the biggest oven in Europe.

00:15:23: Why would you need such a big oven if you already have three others?

00:15:27: Well customer demand was there.

00:15:29: production volumes has increased.

00:15:31: therefore the aim is to brace as many units possible at once to minimize time.

00:15:36: on the other hand We've reached our limits with component size and that's also one of reasons for going bigger.

00:15:43: So, now you can produce multiple components at once and also larger ones because there's more space inside.

00:15:50: Exactly!

00:15:51: so we could know please correct me Samuel produced heat sinks that are one point five meters long and eight hundred millimeters wide.

00:15:57: We couldn't do that before.

00:15:59: these coolers Are also used in trains hybrid trains That run on both diesel an electric power?

00:16:04: That means they have big batteries that need to be kept At a constant temperature...so You need large cooling plates

00:16:10: Because the batteries are so big.

00:16:11: right

00:16:12: yes And from an economic point of view, it is better to manufacture one large cooling plate for the customer than many small ones.

00:16:19: So you have more options now especially for trains and hybrid trains?

00:16:23: Are there other possibilities?

00:16:24: thanks to Donatella ?

00:16:25: Now we can meet customer demand without always working weekends or worrying about a furnace being out-of service.

00:16:31: We can braise twice as many units at once compared to Bertha, our previous largest oven.

00:16:36: So we have shorter lead times and higher production volumes.

00:16:39: How long does the whole process take from start-to-delivery?

00:16:43: If material is already in house And heat sink ready for series production It takes about eight weeks From start to finish.

00:16:50: Pre processing Brazing Final Processing Assembly.

00:16:54: Customers have to wait about eight week.

00:16:57: I imagine that you need a very trusting customer supplier relationship Right?

00:17:01: Absolutely.

00:17:02: We have a very good customer relationship on time.

00:17:04: delivery is very important to us, not only for our company but also for our customers.

00:17:09: we also have to be flexible because requirements can change during those eight weeks!

00:17:13: We're in the project business so things can move forward or get postponed.

00:17:17: that means we need good communication and strong relationships with both customers and suppliers.

00:17:23: all the raw materials have to arrive on time too.

00:17:25: A little peek into The Crystal Ball.

00:17:27: You already mentioned it, Andreas.

00:17:29: What's now possible thanks to Donatella and what might become even more possible with a potential Emilia?

00:17:42: we want to reliably supply our existing customers with high quality products.

00:17:53: I also think that there's a lot of potential in areas such as data centers, especially with AI and digitalization.

00:17:59: For anyone who is curious where can they find you?

00:18:02: Apart from Leagust Where Can They Learn More?

00:18:04: You

00:18:04: can find information on our website but also linked-in or are welcome.

00:18:08: visit us at Our Location In Leagast.

00:18:11: Just give us call first.

00:18:12: We would be happy.

00:18:13: show around.

00:18:15: Wonderful.

00:18:15: Thank you so much, dear Andreas, dear Steffi and Samuel for being here today!

00:18:20: Thanks again for this fascinating conversation.

00:18:23: together we are creating technologies of a cleaner planet.

00:18:26: thank also dear listeners for tuning in.

00:18:28: please follow the podcast on your favorite platform until next episode take care.